Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Joint Committee on Health díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 8 May 2024

Implementation of Sláintecare Reforms: Department of Health and HSE

I am pleased to welcome from the Department of Health Mr. Robert Watt, Secretary General, Ms Louise McGirr, assistant secretary, Ms Siobhán McArdle, assistant secretary, and Ms Rachel Kenna, chief nursing officer; and from the HSE Mr. Damien McCallion, chief operations officer, Mr. Liam Woods, national director, organisational change unit, Ms Anne Marie Hoey, chief people officer, Dr. Siobhan Ní Bhriain, national clinical director integrated care, and Mr. Tony Canavan, regional executive officer, west and north west.

Mr. Canavan is joining the meeting remotely via Microsoft Teams.

Witnesses are remind of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory with regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via Microsoft Teams that, prior to making a contribution to the meeting, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

To commence our consideration of the current position regarding Sláintecare reforms, I invite Mr. Robert Watt to make his opening remarks on behalf of the Department.

Mr. Robert Watt

I thank the committee very much for the invitation to meet again to discuss implementation of Sláintecare. I am joined, as the Chair mentioned, by Ms Louise McGirr, Ms Siobhán McArdle and Ms Rachel Kenna, chief nursing officer.

As the committee will have seen from our recently published Sláintecare progress report, Ireland’s health services are undergoing the most significant programme of reform and expansion in the history of the State. Our driving objective, as set out in the report, is to increase the volume of public activity and treat more people in non-acute settings through improved integrated care. In addition, healthcare productivity is key to achieving this objective. The more productive we are, the more patients we treat, the less time they must wait and the better outcomes we can achieve for them.

Through the enhanced community care programme’s community specialist teams for older persons, 76% of the 31,000 older people treated in the first three months of 2024 were discharged home as opposed to going to acute hospitals. Only 6% were admitted to hospital, with a further 6% going into long-term care. Some 91% of patients with chronic disease are now fully managed in primary care through the chronic disease management programme. As a result, we have seen a 16% reduction in chronic disease admissions to acute hospitals versus a 3.5% reduction in all medical patients between 2019 and last year. Similarly, there has been a 24% reduction in chronic disease 30-day readmission rates versus 5% for all medical patients. These programmes are a very significant part of Sláintecare and are now making a significant contribution to our success in tackling bottlenecks and waiting lists in unscheduled emergency care, as well as addressing the ongoing issues with regard to waiting lists.

On waiting lists, I will briefly give some summary information. More detail is set out in the report. Waiting lists were down last year for the second year in a row, with 177,000 more patients removed from waiting lists last year than in 2022. We have seen a 32% reduction in patients waiting longer than 12 months, and the average waiting time was reduced from over 9.2 months to 7.2 months, a 21% reduction last year compared with the previous year. The 2024 waiting list plan was published in March of this year. Despite the anticipated increased rate of additions - we are again seeing very significant additions to waiting lists across all specialties - the plan aims to deliver an even greater number of removals this year compared with 2023. There are ongoing improvements in productivity and increases in activity across the public health system.

On unscheduled care, our emergency departments are seeing increased levels of demand, with nearly 48,000 extra attendances up to the middle of April this year. Despite this, there has been a 10% decline in patients waiting on trolleys in the same period. The Department will shortly bring the urgent and emergency care plan for 2024-25 to Government. We will focus, in particular, on delivering timely and appropriate care to our elderly and vulnerable patients. The Department, with colleagues in the HSE, is concentrating on ensuring that our challenged sites receive assistance and support to achieve meaningful improvements in their performance.

The new public-only consultant contract, which is a significant part of the Sláintecare reforms, commenced in March last year. It gives us the ability to improve access to care for public patients and to have senior decision-makers on site in our public hospitals for extended periods in the evening and weekend. This is delivering on the Government’s commitment to phase out private practice from public hospitals. We are delighted that 2,229 consultants - representing just over half of all consultants - had signed up to the new contract by 2 May. It is a significant increase in the numbers who have signed up.

Despite the progress we are making, every day we see the immense challenges we face as our population increases and gets older. We see these trends in increased presentations to our emergency departments in particular and we know the centrality of moving to integrated care models, as set out, in meeting these challenges. Notwithstanding our progress in this regard, it is worth noting that we currently have a population over the age of 65 of 800,000. By 2031, it is estimated that this number will reach 1 million; by 2041, it will reach 1.3 million; and in the subsequent decade, it will be nearly 1.6 million - double that of today. This puts into context the enormous challenges we face now and into the future in dealing with the consequences in ageing, which is a positive but transforms fundamentally the nature of the services we have to provide for a different cohort and more people within those older groups. To meet this challenge, we simply must do better with the resources at our disposal.

Through the work of the productivity and savings task force, jointly chaired by myself and the CEO of the HSE, we will be further driving reforms to ensure that we are delivering the highest standard of care, to the greatest number of people, for the investment provided by the Government. This is an important issue that is critical to the success of Sláintecare reform. We need to be able to identify areas where investment in community and primary care services, and our reformed governance, will deliver value to the patient and the taxpayer and make health services more sustainable.

The work of the productivity task force allows us to focus in on where productivity in the services we currently deliver can be improved. This includes mobilising and analysing the data and information we have available in order that we can monitor where real improvements are being delivered on an ongoing basis. Second, we can and must consider how this evidence, alongside developments in technology, operational improvements and targeted investment, can be leveraged to deliver the highest standard of care to the greatest number of patients.

Over the past decade, health funding has increased by €9.1 billion, from €13.7 billion in 2014 to €22.8 billion this year. As a consequence, we have been able to add 43,000 healthcare staff to the public service, improve our healthcare infrastructure, expand eligibility and reduce waiting lists. The same is true in our acute sector. Looking at the data for the acute sector, we have seen that a 68% increase in the budget - more than €3 billion - was provided from 2016 to 2022. This amounts to a real increase in expenditure of 45%, allowing 16,000 additional acute staff and 1,000 new inpatient beds to open during this period.

We must, however, be honest with ourselves if we are to meet the needs of our people in the future. In contrast to the 45% increase in real expenditure, activity has only marginally increased across most treatment areas. While there has been a 21% growth in the number of emergency patients treated over this period, we have seen a lower level overall activity commensurate with the resources that have been allocated to the service. The next step is to align our investment in these areas more directly with the potential impact these interventions could have on activity. We will identify areas where increased care can be delivered through appropriate and targeted investment and reform. We will focus on the divergence in activity and costs across hospitals and take measures to improve relative underperformance.

I believe that we are starting to see evidence that this approach is working. In figures released a fortnight ago, we saw that our hospitals treated a record number of patients in 2023, with a 9.1% increase in inpatient and day case treatments relative to the previous year. While this represents progress, a gap remains, and this is the gap we are targeting in the context of the productivity task force.

To conclude, significant progress is being made in moving towards universal healthcare. Solid foundations and governance are now in place across the Department and the HSE to continue successful implementation towards this vision. Under the programme for Government, we have invested significantly in the health and social care services and to achieving these reforms. Some €1.235 billion was allocated to Sláintecare reforms in budget 2021 and over 2021 to 2023, a total of approximately €2 billion has been invested to support delivery of the goals outlined in the Sláintecare report. This has been further supported by the highest levels of investment overall in our health and social services in 2022 and 2023.

We continue to invest in our workforce and are delivering new care pathways, new facilities, new technologies and new ways of working that will enable our talented health and social care professionals to respond to the growing needs of our population.

Mr. Damien McCallion

I thank the Chair and members for the invitation. My colleagues have been listed, so I will not repeat that.

The recent publication of the Sláintecare progress report highlighted the significant progress being made in many areas but substantial more work is still to be done. Implementation of Sláintecare is the top priority for the HSE, alongside delivery of our core services. We continue to work closely with colleagues in the Department of Health.

On our integrated model of care, the implementation of the HSE's health regions involves the internal reorganisation of the HSE into six organisational regions with responsibility for the planning and co-ordinated delivery of health and social care services within their respective geographies. The six new regional executive officers, REOs, were appointed and took up position recently. They are now accountable and responsible for regional health and social care services. The REOs report directly to the HSE chief executive officer on the operation and management of the health regions and are part of the national leadership team. This is being followed on 1 June by implementation of a new centre to support the regions, which will transition over the summer, concluding in September 2024. The HSE centre will be focused on activities that are best performed at national level, rather than operational matters. This means the centre will devolve responsibility and authority for delivering the vast majority of services to the six regions.

As the Secretary General mentioned, in 2023, despite continued increases in demand for urgent and emergency care, we saw some improvement in key performance metrics, such as patients delayed waiting for admission, patients delayed waiting for transfer of their care to the community, and patient experience times for people aged over 75 in our emergency departments. We continue to see an increased demand for urgent and emergency care, with a 11.5% increase in attendances year to date and a 15.8% increase for older people aged over 75 attending EDs. Despite this, in that period we have managed to achieve a 10% decrease in the number of patients delayed on trolleys, a 16% reduction in patients aged over 75 delayed more than 24 hours, and a 46% decrease in patients delayed in hospital waiting for their care to be transferred to the community.

However, despite these overall productivity improvements, we continue to see some sites with particular challenges. These remain a key focus for the HSE in order to ensure we improve the experience for patients in those sites. This includes implementation of specific short- and medium-term actions as part of a site improvement plan, with supports for those sites where necessary. In addition, we established an academy in 2023, which is focused on ensuring that learning is transferred from those sites that are working well to support sites under more pressure.

Waiting lists reduced in 2023 following similar progress in 2022. As the Secretary General mentioned, waiting times were reduced by 32% for those waiting more than 12 months and the average waiting time reduced from 9.2 months to 7.2 months. We continue to increase our activity in 2024, with, for example, 4.2% more outpatient appointments delivered in the first quarter than were delivered in 2023. However, we face a significant challenge in that referrals for acute hospital services continue to rise post pandemic at a much higher rate than was previously the case. In order to mitigate this demand, we continue to work closely with the National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF, and to focus on modernising the waiting list process through implementation of initiatives such as centralised referrals, productivity improvements, a theatre usage improvement programme, modernised care pathways and robotics. Separate initiatives seek to improve access in our community services, including mental health and disability services. Particular focus is being paid to improving our response to children’s services.

A very substantial elective care programme has been put in place, which brings together key projects to increase our surgical capacity, to address inpatient and day-case waiting lists and future elective demand. These include the development of surgical hubs and elective hospitals, which are designed to separate elective and emergency care. The first surgical hub opened in west Dublin with two further surgical hubs due to open in south Dublin and north Dublin before the end of this year. In addition, work is progressing on opening hubs in counties Galway, Waterford, Cork and Limerick, while considering other geographical areas. These will use rapid-build construction, where possible. At full capacity, each hub will work from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. six days per week and ultimately cater for 5,000 day procedures and 12,000 outpatient appointments related to those procedures per annum. Significant work has taken place over the past few months in defining the size and scope of the elective hospitals based on updated demand and clinical models. While the building planning phase is ongoing, we continue in parallel to develop the operating model, workforce requirements, diagnostics and digital requirements for the new elective hospitals. A request for tender submission was published on 24 April on eTenders for phase 1 of Cork and Galway.

On our enhanced community care programme, one of the key aims of Sláintecare is to shift towards provision of care in the community, where possible, and away from hospitals.

We have seen significant investment in our community care services with the establishment of community diagnostic services, community health networks based around local populations and the introduction of community specialist teams, such as teams for older people and chronic diseases. The Secretary General has referred to some of those advantages in terms of reductions so I will not repeat them.

The introduction of the public-only consultant contract on 8 March 2023 was a priority aimed at improving patient care with the removal of private care within public hospitals. As of 2 May 2024, 2,229 consultants have signed the new contract. An immediate benefit is that all new contract holders provide their full contracted hours to public-only work. In addition, we are placing a particular emphasis on supporting emergency care at weekends and on additional outpatient activity as further private work ceases under the new contract.

With regard to capacity and productivity, the Health Capacity Plan 2018 identified a series of capacity increases required to meet demand. We have grown our acute and critical care bed capacity with the opening of 1,126 acute care and 71 critical care beds - now 320 in total - since 2020. The number of primary care centres has also grown from 138 in 2020 to 176, thereby improving access to care in the community. We are currently updating our capacity plan in regard to other services, such as mental health.

Another key part of the reform area is improving productivity. The Minister has established the joint task force to which the Secretary General referred. We are continuing to see rising demand in line with other healthcare systems following the pandemic. It is critical that we focus on extending services into the evenings and weekends to maximise the use of our infrastructure. This productivity area will be a priority for our new health regions and overseen by the joint task force.

Regarding digital health, the HSE and the Department of Health have worked together to finalise a digital health and social care framework that will guide priorities, development and investment. This is underpinned by a more detailed roadmap which sets down a clear path for the integration of digital technologies in the healthcare system and marks a crucial step in the journey towards a patient-centred and digitally-enabled health and social care environment. Through this framework, we are advancing the implementation of a new patient app in 2024, the development of electronic patient records in key areas, such as the children’s hospital, and the development of a national electronic health record. In addition, we continue to implement solutions to support hospital and community services in their day-to-day operations across services such as laboratories, mental health, disabilities, older persons, primary care and palliative care. This includes the innovative use of robotics and exploring the use of artificial intelligence.

In conclusion, significant progress has been made in the implementation of Sláintecare in our health and social care services. This is underpinned by strong governance and delivery structures between the Department and the HSE to ensure successful implementation. Our focus continues to be on investing in our workforce, underpinned by new facilities, new technologies and new ways of working.

On a point of order, my understanding is that both the Department and the HSE were asked to concentrate on two particular areas. Is that right?

That is right, yes.

I take it that was communicated to them.

We said we would focus on that, but not exclusively. We never have.

There was no mention of digital health from the Department and there was a brief mention from the HSE without an actual update on the framework. The other issue was population health and preventative health strategies, which was a major part of Sláintecare. That was not mentioned by either group.

Mr. Robert Watt

We did not receive any notification of those two specific issues.

We would normally give an indication of the area of focus. My apologies. There seems to be some sort of cross-purpose.

We were asked to email in, so I emailed in a couple of issues and they were covered, to be fair. Maybe there was an oversight somewhere along the way.

We can speak to the clerk to the committee about that.

We will deal with it in private session. If there are specific questions, the members can focus on those. I call Senator Kyne to lead us off.

I welcome Mr. Watt and the team from the Department and Mr. McCallion and the team from the HSE and thank them for their comprehensive updates, which have many positives, as well as many challenges.

On a general health issue, given the weather that we are having and the particularly cold start to the year, has an increase in respiratory issues been evident across the health system?

Mr. Damien McCallion

We would have seen an increase in the early part of the year in both Covid and flu. I will get my colleague, Dr. Ní Bhriain, to come in on this shortly. Effectively, that has started to come down now and we have seen it move back to what we would call normal levels at this point.

However, we are still continuing to see increased attendances - that has not changed substantially - but potentially the patient mix may have changed. That is something we will look at as we come out of it. In the first quarter, we did see the normal increase in flu and Covid but that has started to drop off substantially and we are now approaching normal levels since March. I will ask Dr. Ní Bhriain to fill in the detail.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

The main infections we would have seen are respiratory syncytial virus, influenza and Covid-19. They peaked around week 1 in January. There was an up and down peak during the month of January and they have now decreased back to normal levels in the most recent data.

I thank Dr. Ní Bhriain.

Yesterday there were 56 people on trolleys in University Hospital Galway and 107 people on trolleys in University Hospital Limerick, with UHL having the worst trolley numbers and UHG having the second worst. All the figures and statistics are very positive but it does not make any difference to those people who are on trolleys. In the medium and short term, what has the HSE planned for both UHG and UHL?

Mr. Damien McCallion

We might take them in turn. My colleague, Mr. Canavan, can take Galway in a moment. The overall position, as I said, is that while we have seen a reduction, any patient on a trolley is not acceptable. That is our clear position. We are focused on trying to improve people's experience and the numbers. On those particular sites, and taking Limerick first, a number of measures are in place around capacity-growing. Some are long term in Limerick, and are around two new blocks. In the short term this year, I refer to a virtual ward that would allow us to bring the equivalent of 20 beds into play and an additional 16-bed modular unit to come in before the end of the year. That is matched with trying to look at the flow and the way in which the hospital functions, and, indeed, the wider health community because the solution does not just lie in the hospital. One of our support teams is working with Limerick. In addition, there is ongoing work with Galway. I will ask Mr. Canavan to come in on specific measures there in a moment.

In addition, there is significant investment in staff in Limerick, in nursing, junior doctors and emergency medicine consultants, and in trying to expand the medical assessment units in Ennis, Nenagh and St. John's to a 24-hour basis. An overall plan has been developed to try to improve the situation in Limerick, recognising the pressures there, both in the short and immediate term - we have seen a seen significant increase in resources there - and in the medium and long term in terms of capacity. However, all of that has to be matched on all our sites with trying to take the lessons learned from those sites that are functioning well and trying to transfer that. Each site has its own unique set of challenges, so no two places are the same, but there are lessons being learned.

I mentioned the patient academy earlier. We have had a number of events. The purpose of that is to try to ensure take the learning from places like Waterford, Portlaoise, Tullamore or some of the RCSI hospitals and apply that to other hospitals. It does not necessarily always travel in the same way but all that learning is applied. I will ask Mr. Canavan to speak on Galway specifically.

Mr. Tony Canavan

Thankfully, the situation in Galway has improved slightly today relative to yesterday but I would agree with Mr. McCallion that as long as there is a patient waiting on a trolley for admission to any one of our hospitals, that remains a significant concern. In the shorter term, we have taken a number of measures that have contributed to the improved position we have seen in the last six months, in particular across Galway. Those measures have included trying to improve the process flow within the hospital itself. For example, we have opened a transition area within the emergency department, which has enabled us to allow more appropriate and comfortable accommodation for patients while they are awaiting admission to a ward bed. We have also started a process of cohorting patients on the ward. That means that patients with a similar diagnosis are grouped together in the same ward where they receive similar treatment from the nursing and the medical staff on that ward. That may seem like a very basic measure to take but it is really important in ensuring the care provided to patients is done by the right teams and in a very timely way. It reduces the length of stay the patient has within the hospital and improves the outcomes of the patient. We feel it is contributing to the improvement in Galway as well.

In addition to that, we have put in place a number of patient-flow co-ordinators. These are people working within the hospital whose job is to ensure that patients move through the hospital system from the emergency department into the ward and then through the process of discharge back into community more effectively. Part of the role of the patient-flow co-ordinator is to work very closely with colleagues on the community side as well to ensure that as patients are approaching the point where they are ready for discharge, preparations are in place in the home, in long-term care or in other settings, so they can move as seamlessly and as quickly as possible into those settings, thereby moving the flow through the hospital.

Those are all short-term measures and generally fall into the category of us trying to make the best of the existing resources we have. We describe our existing resources in terms of beds, facilities and diagnostic equipment within the hospital structure and our existing staffing levels in the hospitals. However, we are also trying to work towards more medium and longer-term solutions, which will involve building the additional capacity that is also required if we are to address the access issues we see in our emergency departments on a long-term basis.

I will not say I am none the wiser because that all sounds great, but, as I said yesterday, 56 people are still on trolleys and the district hospital in Clifden has been closed since February because of staffing issues. We cannot recruit. That is a shame. It is not good enough considering the distances from Clifden to Galway city and further to Merlin Park in bad traffic. We have loved ones who had the benefit of Clifden District Hospital for end-of-life or palliative care and respite. They are struggling now and this is having a knock-on impact on University Hospital Galway, UHG. It has been going on since February. We know there is an issue. In fairness, the HSE locally is fully supportive, as are the witnesses and Mr. Gloster previously indicated he is, but the district hospital has been closed since February. Where is the urgency to get it open?

Mr. Tony Canavan

I will respond to that. The district hospital performed an important function locally, for local communities but also, as Senator Kyne has described, served an important function for discharges from the Galway university hospitals. We were challenged with staffing between the two units in Clifden, St. Anne's, which is a long-term care facility, and the district hospital. A decision was taken, as was described, to concentrate our staff where they were required most, in the long-term care facility. Therefore, we reduced the availability of step-down beds in Clifden. That is not a decision we wanted to take and we are certainly conscious of the implications of it. Recruitment to both those units has been difficult for many years, not only in recent times and that is probably at the heart of our problems. We are aware now though that we are likely to be more successful if we recruit to fill vacant posts in the district hospital. We just received approval to do that in the last week and we are progressing it as quickly as we can with a view to reopening those beds. We do not have a date for reopening them yet, as the approval to proceed with recruitment was only received very recently.

Is that from the Department?

Mr. Tony Canavan

It was from within the HSE.

The Minister of State visited last year and indicated to us that there would be no embargo on recruitment. Now Mr. Canavan says that the sanction for those posts was only received in recent weeks.

Mr. Tony Canavan

To be fair, it is important to look at it in the context of the historical difficulties we have had in recruiting to posts generally in Clifden, in both St. Anne's and the district hospital. That has been at the heart of the staffing difficulties in that area for some time. More recently, the current moratorium has had an impact. We are likely to be successful if we go to recruitment at this time.

Mr. Damien McCallion

To be clear, the approval process simply came on the back of the fact that there is now more promising information from the campaign to try to attract people. For quite some time - we looked at this before, as the Senator and others have raised it - one of the challenges in the HSE has been identifying where we can attract and recruit people from. As Mr. Canavan said, there have been more positive signs of light on that in the past month. That is the reason for those things being aligned. It was not a prospect previously for recruitment.

Is that internationally?

Mr. Damien McCallion

Mr. Canavan might respond to that, but from my understanding it is a combination.

Mr. Tony Canavan

There is absolutely a local issue in respect of Clifden. It is not unique to Clifden. We also experience it in other remote locations, such as Belmullet and Donegal, where we have similar recruitment difficulties at times. It reflects the difficulty in attracting staff to remote locations.

It is remote but it is a wonderful part of the world. It is not Outer Mongolia. We hope the witnesses have better success because it is hugely important for the locality. It is constantly being raised by people who unfortunately need the services for themselves and their loved ones. I ask Mr. Canavan to keep the pressure on to ensure that district hospital is open in the coming weeks.

I welcome the witnesses. I will start with Mr. Watt. I have a lot of questions and may not get through them all. First, I am looking for a straight answer and a figure, if he has it, on spending for the first four months of 2024. Is it at profile, behind profile or ahead of profile? Is there a figure?

Mr. Robert Watt

It is ahead of profile by around €500 million.

That is €500 million in additional spend. What is driving that?

Mr. Robert Watt

It is mostly in acute settings, both pay and non-pay. From memory, I think about 75% of it is on the acute side and the remaining quarter of the above-profile spend-----

We were told by the Minister there was a performance management review. There is a structure in place to achieve efficiencies. Mr. Watt spoke of productivity and savings, so people will be surprised. Figures have been put in the public domain concerning savings that will be achieved in agency spend. A recruitment embargo is in place, and I do not agree with that. There were savings to be made on management consultancy. Mr. Watt mentioned medicines publicly as well. Given all of that, how is the Department still €500 million ahead of profile?

Mr. Robert Watt

The Deputy will recall the budget settlement for this year. We have discussed this before and the Minister has discussed it at this and other committees. The budget settlement for this year represented a 1.8% increase on the outturn spending for last year. In the overall context of the types of increases we need for the health budget, that is on the lower side. We have been grappling with making savings-----

A less diplomatic answer would be the health service did not get the budget it needed for 2024 and we are now seeing the fruits of that. Four months in and it is already €500 million short of profile. Is it at this point a racing certainty there will be significant Supplementary Estimates in health by the end of the year?

Mr. Robert Watt

Yes, we will have a Supplementary Estimate by the end of the year.

Will it be close to €1 billion or more than €1 billion? What is the estimated figure?

Mr. Robert Watt

We are doing everything we can-----

Mr. Robert Watt

-----to mitigate the challenges. The Deputy mentioned medicines. There is consultancy spend, non-pay more generally and pay. We are trying to mitigate those while sustaining the level of services. As Mr. McCallion articulated very well, the services are under enormous pressure, particularly in relation to unscheduled care. We are managing the trade-off between very significant demands increasing while our budget is constrained. That is not to suggest we have not seen significant investment in the system over the recent past. We have, but this year we are in a constraint situation so we are managing-----

I make the general point I have raised at this committee and publicly that funding for existing levels of service for health in 2024 was grossly underestimated. The deficit for last year was quite significant and very little of that was put into the base for 2024. It was always going to be the case we would quickly see spending ahead of profile in health, and that is what we are seeing. It is not a way to run or fund a Department. I do not blame the Secretary General; I blame the political system and the Government for not properly funding health. It is a poor way to fund a health service. I will leave that one because it is a matter for Government and we will take it up with Government.

I move to University Hospital Limerick and the mid-west region. I ask Mr. Watt first and Mr. McCallion might want to come in as well. Members of this committee visited the hospital some time ago. There is a plan the Minister put in place a number of weeks ago when he visited. Many of the elements of that plan are sticking plaster solutions and temporary but there is a need for additional capacity in Limerick.

I need to pose the question about acute capacity in the mid-west but before I do, I will speak of my experience. I live in Waterford, as the witnesses know, which is another wonderful part of the country. Not far from where I live, there is a model 4 university hospital in Waterford, which, as the witnesses know, is performing well. In Wexford, there is a model 3 general hospital with an emergency department. St. Luke's General Hospital, Kilkenny, which is not too far away, is a model 3 hospital. There is also a model 3 university hospital in Clonmel, County Tipperary. Within a short radius, there are four emergency departments, three model 3 hospitals and a model 4 hospital, and yet, in the mid-west, there is only one model 4 hospital and no model 3 hospitals. I know that whatever we do must be clinically and medically underpinned and I support that. Whatever service we provide must be safe. Surely, however, given what we can see in other regions, there is now a need for the Department to seriously consider a model 3 hospital for the mid-west region. Is that being considered by the Department? I will come back to Mr. McCallion.

Mr. Robert Watt

I accept, and the numbers are clear, that there is a shortage of beds in the mid-west. As the Deputy knows, a 96-bed or 98-bed block is being developed and another will come on stream after that. We need to increase capacity and the Department is reviewing that on an ongoing basis. There absolutely are particularly acute problems within that region and we are all aware of that. There is a need for more capacity. As the Deputy knows, the Government has invested significantly to provide more beds, staff and resources but we clearly need to do more.

Would Mr. Watt take my point-----

Mr. Robert Watt

To answer the Deputy's question-----

Would Mr. Watt take my point about the south east as an example?

Mr. Robert Watt

I absolutely would. There is an issue and in the overall context, I absolutely accept the point that more capacity is needed. The exact type and model of that additional capacity is a matter for debate and review is ongoing. I take the Deputy's point about capacity constraints.

Does Mr. McCallion want to come in quickly on that issue?

Mr. Damien McCallion

I will come in briefly. The contrast drawn by the Deputy is fair. The clinical advice at the moment, as the Deputy knows, is around model 4 and trying to build up the services in other areas. There is no question but that Limerick is constrained in its acute bed capacity and hence the investment in the 96-bed block and the 16-bed modular block this year. Consideration is also being given to another block, if possible. That consideration was submitted in the plan here to the committee by the region. It is about looking at the region in its totality. There are aspects of the system in Limerick that work well, for example, how the community works. UHL has the lowest delayed transfers of care for any model 4 in the country. The CEO has asked each of the regions to look at their overall health infrastructure to see how that maps out but it obviously needs to be guided by policy and, as the Deputy knows, the small hospitals framework set out the policy around that for the region.

As a general point, while there is a logic in the small hospitals framework, a commitment was given to build a centre of excellence in Limerick. Closing three emergency departments and having one emergency department servicing the region clearly has not worked if we look at all the issues that have arisen. Of course we need additional capacity in Limerick. We need to broaden our horizons and look more holistically at the mid-west region. I say that honestly. I do not want any service that is not safe to be put in place. Our services must be safe and clinically underpinned. We need to substantially reconsider the region.

I wish to ask about the pay and numbers strategy. We are now in May and no strategy has been published. Why not?

Mr. Robert Watt

I thank the Deputy. As he knows, we have a policy at the moment which means there is a recruitment moratorium, with some exceptions. That is not a satisfactory position and we want to move to a different control framework. The proposals developed by the Department and the HSE are with the Minister and those on the political side. The Minister is having conversations with his political colleagues about that.

What I am saying is that we are now in May. I have been contacted by healthcare trade unions and have met many hospital managers in recent months and the issue of pay and numbers has come up. Staff in the health service are becoming increasingly frustrated with the recruitment embargo. It is having an impact. When I talk to people on the front line, including hospital mangers, nobody tells me the moratorium is not having an impact, including on community services. The pay and numbers strategy is important. Is it done and just sitting on the Minister's desk?

Mr. Robert Watt

There are proposals that are being discussed at a political level. There is obviously a trade-off between the overall cash amount and the need for us to fund some of those unfunded posts.

Is this caught up in tension between the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform, and the Department of Health?

Mr. Robert Watt

No.

What is the next stage then? There is a paper with the Minister. Mr. Watt is saying there are a number of options. What next? Does it go to Cabinet?

Mr. Robert Watt

Yes, I understand there will be a discussion at the Cabinet committee on health where the party leaders and the Minister will reach a decision. We will be informed about that and we will then implement whatever that decision is.

I will finish by saying it is unsatisfactory that we are into May and we still do not know what the pay and numbers will be for the health service. No manager can plan and we cannot hold anybody to account. We do not know what the final outworking of it will be regarding additional recruitment.

I have a quick final question. The figure of 2,200 of net additional increase has been put out there a number of times. When I put it to the Minister when he appeared before the committee, he seemed to suggest some of that will be safe staffing as well and maybe only 1,500 for new development posts. Is that the case? Is that one of the proposals or is safe staffing separate?

Mr. Robert Watt

Yes, it is a combination of the safe staffing and the new developments.

Safe staffing should have been separate. We were told there would be 2,200 additional posts for new measures but now it seems that some of it is safe staffing, so it is actually less than that. It is far less than the number that has been recruited in the past number of years. It is unsatisfactory.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I wish to start with the digital health framework. Where is that now?

Mr. Damien McCallion

The work is done. Working with colleagues in the Department, we hope it will go to Government imminently. It is effectively done.

What is the reason for the delay? This committee had two sessions over the past year or so on digital health and the importance of it. We were told that the framework would be published in September, and then we were told it would be in March. We are now into May. What was the reason for the delay?

Mr. Damien McCallion

There are two pieces to it. There is the framework itself, which sets out the overall policy context, and it is my understanding that is due to go to Government currently. It is done; the work is done. The second piece, which is just as important, is what we call the roadmap, which is how we implement it. Effectively, we have not waited for the framework to be signed off. We have continued to progress the work around each of the key initiatives. I mentioned the patient app earlier as one example.

We still do not know the reason for the delay. It is nine or ten months late now.

Mr. Damien McCallion

The only thing I would say is there was a process of engagement where we worked with the Department with our own system, which was felt to be helpful in trying to land it within the system. For example, in the west, we ran a detailed engagement with many of the services and clinicians around it.

Can Mr. Watt tell me the reason for the delay?

Mr. Robert Watt

As Mr. McCallion said, the strategy is developed and has been circulated. Even though the overall strategy has not been launched and we are looking for Government support for it, most of the key elements are being worked on and advanced.

What is the reason for not publishing the framework?

Mr. Robert Watt

There is no reason. We have been involved in preparation and we want to get it right. We have refreshed it. We had a strategy in 2013-----

It is nine or ten months late.

Mr. Robert Watt

It is important and I do not want people to have the wrong impression. The key projects encompassed within the strategy-----

That is fine but we have not seen the framework.

Mr. Robert Watt

-----and the whole number of applications in relation to e-applications are being pursued. Mr. McCallion mentioned the app. We are now developing a proposal with regard to electronic health records and tenders are going. Many activities are happening.

My question was why the framework is nine or ten months late in being published and we have not seen it yet.

I have a question on EHRs. How is it proposed to integrate community and acute hospitals in respect of electronic health records?

Mr. Damien McCallion

I will make a couple points. There are two levels to this. One is having electronic records within services – community and hospital. The policy we worked on with the Department in the past couple of months as part of the framework is to have an integrated record in the context of the new region so it is community and hospital together where possible. There will not be a solution that will work for everything. There will also be what we call niche solutions for things such as disability or some of the home care areas. There will always be other solutions that need to be developed alongside that. We are now working and putting together the tender for the overall EHR. Separate to that, there is what we call the shared care record, which is where we draw the information from all the individual systems. General practice is probably the most developed. We are currently out for tender for that. We are in what is called the competitive dialogue process for that solution with a plan to implement it in 2025. Looking at it from the top down, the app is the mechanism where the patient will see some of the information in the system.

The shared care record is like a window into all of the systems on the ground. For the electronic healthcare record, which we are going to tender on, we are currently working up the business case and specifications and looking for a joint-----

When in 2025 is Mr. McCallion talking about having it fully activated?

Mr. Damien McCallion

The shared care record will be subject to the tender in line with the build phase for that product.

Can the HSE send me a note on the timeline proposed?

I want to move on to the issue of productivity. Much was made of the report that came out recently on additional funding and additional staffing for acute hospitals and the productivity increase not corresponding. How was productivity measured in that analysis?

Mr. Robert Watt

In the report, we focused on outturn measures of activity as opposed to outcomes because we do not have a comprehensive set of data across all of the different areas of speciality. In the acute sector, we focused on outpatient consultations, day cases, inpatients and unscheduled care, so there were four broad outturn indicators or activity indicators within the acute setting. We then assigned the volume of work associated with each one of those. Obviously, an inpatient procedure where somebody is staying in a hospital overnight is much more demanding on the system than an outpatient consultation. We came up with a composite-----

It was a quantitative analysis.

Mr. Robert Watt

It was primarily a quantitative analysis. We were very clear in the report that we caveated the limitations of that approach. It is not an absolute, definitive word on the system and it does not, for example, talk about prevention, what we are doing in ECC or in the community, and all of those other things. It is very much on the acute side. It was to give an idea of the broad outline of what we are seeing in activity relative to the resources.

Is value for money being examined in any respect? I have not seen any conclusions being drawn in that regard. I have some concern that substantial funding is going into the acutes and into the NTPF. Are we seeing a transfer of activity from public hospitals to the NTPF, which essentially amounts to outsourcing? Equally, this question arises in primary care diagnostics, where we have seen huge spending on the outsourcing of diagnostics, with 80% of the budget spent so far this year. What is happening about the funding that was intended for diagnostics within the public health system? How is the Department measuring those two? Can Mr. Watt convince us that there is not a transfer of activity from the public sector to the private sector?

Mr. Robert Watt

We are obviously providing record levels of care within the public system and we are also procuring through the NTPF.

I am sorry, but how do we know there are record levels of care? Mr. Watt talked about the productivity not being in line with the additional funding and staffing.

Mr. Robert Watt

What I mean by the record level of care is, for example, that the number of outpatient consultations provided through the public health system reached 3.7 million last year. We can look at the number of day case procedures, which was 1.1 million, and the number of inpatient procedures, which was 600,000 to 700,000. Regarding the level of attendance, admission and treatment in unscheduled care, as Mr. McCallion mentioned, the activity levels were way up at more than 28,000 per week. What I mean is that overall activity within the acute system is way higher than we have ever had before.

But not in line with the additional funding. Is that not the finding?

Mr. Robert Watt

The finding is that it is not commensurate with the additional funding. We have to look at the complexity as well. Obviously, in unscheduled care, we are seeing more people aged over 75, so they stay longer.

I appreciate the complexity.

Mr. Robert Watt

This is a very live area in research literature. The complexity of care is also a factor. It is very hard for us to measure that, and Dr. Ní Bhriain knows more about this than I do. Let us say there is a higher percentage of attendances or admissions into the hospital system from those over 75, who are frailer, have comorbidity and stay longer. Trying to adjust for that is complicated.

I appreciate it is very complex.

Mr. Robert Watt

Overall, two conclusions that we are broadly happy with are that the level of activity and the volume of service being provided in the public system are at an all-time high.

Having said that, we want to see further increases, given the resources that have been committed by the taxpayer.

It is the case that the NTPF will pay a certain amount for, say, a hip operation, whatever the going rate is when it tenders. That was not disclosed to us last week when we talked about it. How does that figure compare with the cost of a hip operation in public hospital X? Does the Department have that level of detail?

Mr. Robert Watt

We have, yes. We have a good idea. That is a function of the relative productivity of a private hospital versus a public hospital. It depends on the nature of the specialities. Orthopaedics is a good example. In a given day, for the cost of the staff and the theatre cost, there are figures on how many procedures are done in a public hospital compared with a private hospital.

Are those figures publicly available?

Mr. Damien McCallion

The hospital planning office has some of those prices. I will have to get back to the Deputy on whether we publish them publicly vis-à-vis what is there. We can certainly look into that and come back to her on it.

My final question is on productivity and the new consultant contract. There should be a 25% increase in the productivity and capacity of those consultants who transferred over from the original contract. How is that being measured?

Mr. Robert Watt

I will answer that in two ways. We are starting to see some positive impacts as regards more outpatient consultations. We are now seeing a very significant effect on the number of people who are rostered, especially for weekends. We are seeing an increase in discharges. Those numbers are incorrect-----

Who is measuring that productivity increase?

Mr. Robert Watt

Each of the hospital sites, through the regional health areas and the HSE. We have seen, for example, to give one interesting stat, the level of discharge on Saturdays is up 30% this year compared with previous years. That is a function of more consultants, or more senior decision-makers, being rostered on Saturdays. That is very important.

Who is measuring the capacity overall? It may be greater on a Saturday, but it might be different on a Tuesday.

Mr. Robert Watt

A variety of indicators are collected for each site.

Are those figures publicly available?

Mr. Robert Watt

A lot of it is available. Whatever we have we can make available to the committee.

Mr. Damien McCallion

We track the weekend discharges, which is a good indicator of more senior decision-makers. Mr. Canavan can talk to counties Galway and Mayo, which are two of the sites that have seen a significant jump this year in the number of discharges at the weekend, which helps flow. The other piece-----

I am interested in the overall figure, not just Saturday figures.

Mr. Damien McCallion

Sure. We see it on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. There is a 10% increase in Sunday discharges and a 30% increase on Saturday. On how we do it, we do a census or survey on a regular basis around the new consultant contract and where we are seeing value, whether that is additional outpatients or people rostered into the evening. It will vary wildly across specialities and the hospitals themselves, depending on the number-----

It would be good to see them.

Mr. Damien McCallion

We can certainly give summary-level information on that. To be clear, however, it varies between sites and we only do that census on a quarterly or four-monthly basis. We can give the Deputy some headlines around that.

My first question is on the elective care programme. How many people are on some form of waiting list at present?

Mr. Robert Watt

Someone will have the precise numbers, but approximately 500,000 people are waiting for outpatient consultations and approximately 85,000 people are on waiting lists for procedures. There are a few hundred thousand on community waiting lists as well. The figure is approximately 500,000. The target we referenced is the number of people waiting more than 12 weeks for an outpatient consultation or more than ten weeks for a procedure. Those numbers are still unacceptably high but are a good deal lower than the overall headline number. We have seen a very significant reduction in waiting lists in 2022 and 2023. We are also seeing a reduction in the average period people are waiting for services.

This is in a context where demand has grown very significantly for two reasons. There is a post-Covid effect where there was delayed treatment and people delayed turning up with their different conditions. We have seen that effect. There is also the demographic issue, which is driving demand for a whole variety of services. There are different elements to the waiting list issue. We have seen some improvement. We have a very detailed plan to drive that improvement this year.

On the elective care programme, which is a good concept, what is the average waiting time for a surgical procedure in the surgical hubs?

On average, what is the waiting time for a surgical procedure in these hubs? People contact our office about surgeries that are sometimes not for four or five years. That is not a good timeframe. The concept of the hubs is to address capacity and waiting times. When these hubs are in place, what percentage will they take from waiting lists?

Mr. Damien McCallion

I will provide some numbers for the Deputy. The hub in west Dublin, in Tallaght, has been open for some time. It is still not at full capacity, as in being open from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. six days a week, but it is working very close to that. Hubs are for day cases only, not inpatient care. In Tallaght, about 80% of its day case patients are undertaking that procedure, while other patients need to remain in the hospital because they are clinically complex cases and may need access to ICU and so on in the event of issues arising. Of the procedures that are done, approximately 75% are compliant with the Sláintecare target of 12 weeks. That is a positive outcome and the reason for the investment in the other hubs around the country. The time it will take to get to that level in each of the other hubs will vary depending on the waiting lists in those geographic areas. Essentially, over the 18 months to two years of the operation of the hub in west Dublin, that has been achieved for the basket of procedures it applies to. There are still procedures that need to be done in hospital and day case work. Over time, we anticipate, clinically, that further procedures will move to a day case basis. Over time, that is the general trend, even for things today that may require complex. Dr. Ní Bhriain may wish to talk about that.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

As people move towards day cases - this goes back to the public only contract - we are introducing a clinical approach to pre-assessment by consultant anaesthetists for patients who require procedures. That reduces the length of time people stay in hospital and reduces cancellations. I do not have any particular data from Kilkenny but it has started down there and has reduced cancellations. We could look at that for the Deputy. As we introduce more and more of these comprehensive pre-operative assessments by our anaesthetist colleagues, that should increase the number of people who can be sent towards day cases.

Has any of this been delayed by the recruitment embargo in the past 18 months?

Mr. Damien McCallion

We are at the tender stage. For example, construction work is ongoing in Mount Carmel in south Dublin. The plan is to be open before the end of the year. It is already working on recruitment. Similarly, for north Dublin, the first phase will open towards the end of this year and the second phase will be next year. At the other sites, in terms of construction, the tender is just in the cooling off period for Waterford, Limerick and Cork. For Galway, the tender company has been selected and work is being done on planning adjustments at the moment. The actual opening date will be subject to the final tender and final contract plan. There are no issues with recruitment in those scheduled to open.

I think I flagged this already with the Department of Health. My next question is about an extensive report by the Health Research Board on the future of the medical cannabis access programme. The MCAP is a good concept but only 55 patients have had access to medical cannabis since it was conceived. That is a very small number of people who can get access via prescription. A clinical review is to be done. When will it happen? Does the Department envisage that the programme will expand, as it will according to the report by the HRB? If it does not, I am fearful that it will become almost redundant in terms of people getting access to medical cannabis.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

I can give an update on the current state of affairs. As the Deputy knows, medical cannabis is licensed at this point in time or available for use for people with three particular conditions, namely, spasticity, intractable nausea and vomiting associated with chemotherapy, and severe and refractory epilepsy. It is underpinned by a number of aspects of legislation.

At this time, the Deputy is correct in saying we have had 55 patients treated. There were 38 in the first category, that is, spasticity associated with MS, who have been resistant to all other standard therapies and interventions, three patients for the intractable nausea and vomiting related to chemotherapy and 11 patients with severe refractory epilepsy. That is the data on those.

It is very hard for me as a psychiatrist not to say that I am very conscious of the difference between the cannabinoids and the THC-containing medication. It is important that we do not conflate the use of those particular products in treating people. As the Deputy will know, THC is a psychoactive substance and does lead to quite severe adverse effects in the people who take it rather than CBD, subject to cannabidiol. The issue of reviewing the policy is with the Department of Health but I think we will be waiting for more evidence to emerge. That said, speaking to my clinical colleagues, it is available for those very specific indications.

The HRB report is very extensive, running to more than 200 pages. It recommends that the programme be expanded, particularly to neuropathic pain for which there is quite good evidence. A tiny number of people - 55 - have got access to medical cannabis over four years. The whole idea of the programme was to give people access rather than people having to go to the black market, which is happening, or doing without. It is really important that this programme expands to include other conditions, particularly neuropathic pain where there is good evidence. The Danish medical cannabis programme includes other conditions, particularly neuropathic pain. When will the clinical review take place? This has been going on forever at this stage.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

I will have to come back with a specific date for when the review will happen.

Mr. Robert Watt

We will come back to the Deputy on the specifics. It is a very complex area. We will obviously be guided by the best clinical practice and advice. We will come back with a note on the specific timeframes. As the Deputy said, it is a very detailed and comprehensive report and the numbers benefiting from the programme are very modest. That is driven by the clinical guidelines and practice. We will come back with a timeframe.

Does Mr. Watt agree that having only 55 people benefit from the programme over the past four years is a tiny number?

Mr. Robert Watt

It is a modest number but I do not know the number of people who would fall into those categories in general. There are three categories. In addition, clinical decisions will have been made about whether the treatment would have been appropriate for people who have any of the three conditions that were mentioned.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

Our clinicians are very aware of this availability. There is a lot of new medication on the market for dealing with intractable nausea and vomiting in chemotherapy. That may be a reflection of that particular fact. Our clinicians, particularly those who deal with multiple sclerosis and epilepsy, our neurology colleagues, are very aware of this programme. I have absolutely no doubt they would make use of it if they thought it was necessary.

Mr. Robert Watt

We can come back with a more detailed note for the Deputy. The reasons we will be given is that there are clinical reasons for this. It is a clinical explanation.

I understand.

Mr. Robert Watt

It is up to individuals who are the carers, the medical advisers, of people with those conditions and are making those decisions on their behalf. We will come back on the numbers. They are modest but that does not necessarily mean that they are too small. We will come back with detail on the numbers and a note on the timeline for the review.

I welcome the witnesses. I am in the awkward position that I have to be here and next door at the same time. It is very difficult to be in two places. Sometimes it is difficult to be in one place at the correct time.

We have had extremely good performance in the delivery of health services in some hospitals and not-so-good performance in others. To what extent has there been a comparison between places where there are good outcomes, good performance and steady progress in line with expectations and the other places? For instance, there is case of University Hospital Limerick, which members visited recently. There is a hospital under construction while, at the same time, patients are pouring in from all sides and from places that had shut down their emergency departments.

That cannot be done, unless the hospital to which they are required to go, has a system of referring on patients to somewhere else because one cannot take an unlimited number of patients ad infinitum.

Mr. Robert Watt

I will ask my colleagues in the HSE to add to what I say. There are differences in performance and we monitor it. We collate and collect a large amount of data and we publish a large amount of it.

In regard to unscheduled performance, there are 29 emergency departments and, for the year to date, five sites that account for 45% to 50% of the trolleys. Within that subset - we know about Limerick, which is an outlier - there are differences that reflect historical investment, bed capacity, demand conditions within those catchment areas and other issues such as leadership culture, reform, and so on. We are always comparing. It is of course difficult to understand exactly what causes the differences in performance. That is not clear-cut. That is much more nebulous and not subject to a more quantitative analysis, as would be the case with the actual outturn data. All the time we are using the data to try to understand and then put in place improvement plans for performance where particular challenges exist.

Why is it not clear-cut? Would an obvious trend not be readily visible if in one region there are one or two hospitals performing less up to scratch than in a hospital 100 miles away? There has to be some relevance to the procedures and management in the hospital itself, and the number of patients in the catchment area. There must be something that can be addressed. Why can that not be addressed once and for all?

Mr. Robert Watt

We are addressing it. Differences in performance are identified and then we enter into a performance dialogue. We discuss with the leadership team best practice, the implementation of reforms and how resources are being used. I assure the Deputy that this is happening. In the case of sites that are not performing, they need to be fixed. It is not good enough that they are not fixed.

Are they being fixed?

Mr. Robert Watt

I think, in the main, yes, we have seen improvement in performance in sites that were previously problematic. Beaumont is one that did not perform as well five or ten years ago. In terms of performing in relation to scheduled care, the number of trolleys is quite low. There are a variety of reasons for that. All the time, we assess relative performance, try to understand what drives it and then put in place improvement plans to ensure that all the sites get to provide an acceptable level of service. As Mr. McCallion mentioned earlier, it is not acceptable to have anybody waiting on a trolley. All the time we are trying to drive for significant improvements to get to an acceptable level of service across all sites and all regions in the country.

Mr. Damien McCallion

I will add to what Mr. Watt said. There is the performance piece. We do have a number of sites to which he referred where there has been an escalation. We look at what supports can be used to try and help those sites, as well as the general performance piece. We have national programmes rolling out for enhanced community care and making sure it is consistently applied across the country. As the Deputy said, if it is working in one geographical area, we can apply it to another.

There are different factors sometimes between the hospitals in terms of access to primary care, capacity, staff, the mix, and so on and so forth. The age profile, demography and tradition, for example, can be very different between certain areas. There are factors like that.

In addition, last year we set up an academy for all the people who are involved in urgent emergency care to try to make sure there are opportunities for people to learn from each other, see what is there and to look at the things that can travel. It is almost on three levels. There is a performance level. There is a piece then related to national deployment. The Deputy suggested that programmes should be consistently applied across the country. Then there is a learning piece as well for people in terms of making sure it is shared. There were more than 500 people at a recent learning event - nurses, doctors, therapists, and radiologists all came online during their lunchtime to listen to talks on a number of issues. We bring in international people as well as domestic speakers.

The Secretary General referred to places such as Beaumont. In the past three years Tullamore, for example, has seen significant changes and improvement. That is alongside places like Waterford that have commonly been highlighted. We are seeing a growing number. We have seen a reduction, but we recognise there are sites that are not as they should be.

We do not want to have people on trolleys, as I mentioned earlier, so that is why the focus is on performance improvement, a consistent roll-out and then trying to make sure that learning is shared with people. There is no one in our system in any hospital today that is under pressure who does not want it to work better. It is about working with people to try to make sure we support them to allow that to happen. Mr. Canavan might want to comment. He is the regional executive officer in the west. He is on the ground.

Mr. Tony Canavan

Similarly, we also have variability in performance, as we describe it, across each of the hospitals.

As Mr. Watt and McCallion have both described, there are a variety of reasons for that. One of the other key factors that we are challenged by is our geography. Many of the people who use our hospital services do not have an alternative nearby. If one takes County Donegal, for example, the only hospital that is available to the vast majority of people in that county is Letterkenny University Hospital. That puts particular pressure and demands on the hospital at various times. Again, within the region we take the same approach as has been described across the country. We try to focus performance on sites that really require it and we try to transfer the learning from one site to the other, where that is appropriate, to ensure that all of our sites are learning from one another. One of the key learnings we have picked up in the past 12 months, for example, is a focus on the number of patients waiting for over 14 days or with a length of stay over 14 days in each of our hospitals. That has been a very useful indicator to us over the course of 2023 in driving improvements. We have been watching those numbers as they are starting to increase and then addressing them at an early stage before they rise too high. That has proven particularly effective in Mayo, where we have seen a significant reduction in the number of patients on trolleys in the emergency department awaiting admission. It is also proving to be very relevant in terms of Letterkenny and Galway, although the improvements are not as striking just yet on those sites. That is an example of the learning from one site around the 14-day length of stay, how relevant that is in terms of the overall numbers of patients on trolleys awaiting admission and how we transfer that between our sites.

How is the hospital building programme progressing across the county, including refurbishment, upgrading and expanding capacity? I refer to hospitals in places like Naas, Portlaoise, and Navan, where population pressures are high. Are we make sufficient provision for the future or are we in a situation where, by the time we get around to making changes and improvements, they are already out of date?

Mr. Robert Watt

There are pressures in the areas the Deputy mentioned. On some of those sites, capital projects are either under way or in the pipeline to increase beds. Over the last number of years we have increased the number of beds by over 1,000 and there are a few hundred additional beds for this year. We have a programme of ongoing improvements in the main sites and as we mentioned previously, there are planned improvements to the six surgical hubs, two of which will be open this year, with the remainder opening next year. Last week the Government approved the next phase in relation to the elective hospitals. The two sites for Dublin are pushing ahead. We also have two major projects in the form of the children's hospital, CHI, at St. James and the national maternity hospital, which is pushing ahead at Elm Park.

What did Mr. Watt say about Naas?

Mr. Robert Watt

I do not have the exact details on Naas here. I will come back to the Deputy on that.

I would be anxious about that because it has been there a long time and we need to be getting to the end of it.

Mr. Robert Watt

The broader issue is that it is not just about beds. It is also about the utilisation of beds and reducing the length of stay. We are seeing significant changes and reductions in the length of stay, which is very important to maximise utilisation. The same is true for discharges at weekends. If we can discharge people earlier and at the weekend, that frees up capacity on Monday and Tuesday when the system is under pressure. There is a whole variety of different factors there.

My last question is around scoliosis and the degree to which the health service is getting to grips with the issue. It is a high-profile subject which is very serious and sensitive for those affected and their families. Can we report sufficient progress in that area? Are we making a real impression? This is an issue that reflects the standards, welfare and well-being of the service throughout the country.

Mr. Robert Watt

It is a service that we are acutely aware is not performing as well as we would like, with patients waiting an excessive amount of time. There was an increase in activity in 2022 and 2023 and a further increase this year. The Minister has ring-fenced €19 million in additional spending, which is leading to more theatres being open, more staff being allocated and an increase in activity. A spinal task force group has been set up in the management unit within CHI to drive the changes and reforms needed. It is a service which we are acutely aware needs to get better but there are various elements in place in that regard. I will ask Ms Kenna to add to what I have just said.

Ms Rachel Kenna

The first meeting of the task force was held last week. A significant programme of work is under way and I am confident we will see progress with the resources and staffing that have already gone in. The work this year has already shown promise in respect of increased activity and the number of spinal procedures that have been carried out. We are looking at additional resources, including initiatives such as longer operating days for spinal procedures. The task force is due to meet again in six weeks and we will track the progress against the work programme.

Sitting suspended at 10.55 a.m. and resumed at 11.04 a.m

I welcome all our witnesses and thank them for their work in this area. I have a few questions about mental health. The reform of mental health services is a key element of Sláintecare. I acknowledge the launch of the HSE my mental health plan, but I would love hear about any further developments in this area, especially those related to treatment.

Perhaps one of the witnesses will highlight any measures being taken to ensure cohesion of mental health supports across other health services.

Mr. Robert Watt

I will ask Ms McArdle, the assistant secretary in this area, to say a few words about the strategy. Colleagues from the HSE may then talk more about the operational details, if that is okay.

Ms Siobhán McArdle

As the Senator is aware, Sharing the Vision is the national mental health strategy. We are well into the implementation phase of that. The allocation of funding for mental health this year has seen a year-on-year increase. We are now at an investment of €1.3 billion. That is across all our core programmes as well as our specialist services. The Senator's query on cohesion and integration with other parts of the service is critical because we have had investment in dual diagnosis teams. We have seen a roll-out of our dual diagnosis specialist service for people with a presentation of addiction issues as well as mental health issues. There is also a focus on investing in those teams for our children, particularly teenagers and young adults in the Dublin area. It is important that specialist programme on dual diagnosis will be rolled out through the life of the strategy nationally. The demands are different and vary in different parts of the country. The HSE representatives might speak to some of the creativity involved in doing hub and spoke models, where there may be a specialist team providing outreach and support to CAMHS teams or community mental health teams.

The other piece of integration in terms of specialist programmes relates to mental health for those with an intellectual disability. This involves more specialist teams for people who experience mental health difficulties and have a learning difficulty. Those teams are specialist but work in that middle space between mental health services and our learning disability services to support families and individuals who experience poor mental health, and the people around them, in a more specialised and tailored way. Again, as part of the overall strategy, there is a commitment to ensuring that investment and continuation of the improvement in our community mental health services, and layering the more specialist programmes on that.

In addition, we have specialist programmes on eating disorders. We know that frequently involves an interaction between our acute hospital service and our community mental health service. We are increasingly seeing over time, with the development of those community teams, a greater proportion of people successfully receiving and achieving treatment in the community. That then creates less demand on our acute hospital service.

I will pass over to Dr. Ní Bhriain, who may have further details.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

Does the Senator wish to go into any specific detail on what Ms McArdle said?

I would like to hear a little more about dual diagnosis. I would also love to hear, and if the officials do not have the information on this maybe they could send me some, about families, in particular, that have somebody who might have an eating disorder, and the anxiety, stress and worry around that, or family members who might have an addiction problem or mental health issue. Is any consideration being given to any more supports being put in place in those areas? There are some supports out there but are there any more?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

There are supports in place. My clinical background is in psychiatry and generally, in treatment in psychiatry, we try to support families as much as possible. It is a principle of care to involve family members. Clearly, if an individual does not want his or her family member involved, that can create difficulties but support services are out there. We are working this year particularly to improve our mental health service user and family engagement team, which has been extant in the HSE for a considerable period. We can certainly get more information on existing supports for families and carers. For older persons, again, there are quite significant supports for carers of people with the complex psychological problems that come with old age.

Would the Senator like us to talk a little about our child and youth mental health improvement programme?

That would be very helpful.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

As the Senator knows, there have been a number of audits of that area of care over the past couple of years, following on from the Maskey report.

We have looked at national audits of adherence to CAMHS operational guideline and proscribing practices and there has been a review of service users' experiences. Following on from that, we have a working group, which Mr. McCallion chairs. I am also a member of it. It looks at the implementation of the recommendations of those reports. It is fair to say that it is proceeding around the country. There are then some focused service plans, particularly focused on waiting lists for children and young people who are waiting for care from primary psychology and CAMHS. That is yielding an overall reduction in the numbers, particularly on those waiting lists longer than nine months. We can certainly provide the Senator with an update on that specific information.

That would be very helpful. I am conscious of time. It is my understanding that not all primary care centres have mental health services, and maybe Ms McArdle can answer this. It results in the postcode lottery. We here about that time and again. Are measures being taken to address this? This is to get more clarity on how the mental health services are incorporated into the new integrated model of care within the new health regions.

Ms Siobhán McArdle

I thank Senator Black. All areas of the country are covered by mental health teams, be that community adult mental health teams or the children's service. However, the Senator is pointing to an issue whereby sometimes, in some parts of the country, those teams do not overlap or correspond to some of our primary care teams. One of the focuses for the integrated health regions is to ensure that alignment will happen where it is currently not present so that there is greater alignment for families, GPs or the services between their primary care team and their mental health team. I can assure Senator Black that every part of the country has equal access to community-based mental health services.

That is great. Finally, can any of the witnesses provide an update in relation to the single point of access that was due to be established for primary care, mental health and disability services? I believe there were two test sites that were due to be established to test a common referral pathway for patients aged between 0 and 25. I am just wondering can any of the witnesses give the committee an update in relation to that single point of access.

Mr. Damien McCallion

I will be brief and Dr. Ní Bhriain may want to come in as well. The national access policy was about consolidating that access point for a child. Effectively, many children have needs in primary care. They may have a disability and may also have a mental health condition. Sometimes, the challenges lie in the interface points between the teams. Certainly, that is the case from teams I have met.

One of the key actions in the child and youth mental health service improvement programme is about working across disability and primary care but also about making sure people are not being moved from one waiting list to another because that is the risk for kids and families. That work is actually going on in an expanding number of areas in the new regions to try to look at that in terms of implementing the national access policy around that, as it is called.

Success is variable. It is contingent on ensuring that teams are aligned in terms of their waiting lists. There is a significant process to go through on that. Ultimately, it is the right thing to do. As for the success of it, it will be contingent on getting those teams working together. I believe it is too early to make an observation as to the challenges. Nothing that has happened so far will change the direction. It makes absolute sense that when a child comes in, they are seen and assessed in a single way that it is cohesive. However, there are challenges. We know there are huge gaps with the teams in disability and, therefore, we are trying to be really careful so that we are not in that process of bouncing people from one list to another.

There is a lot of focus on making that work in a number of sites, beyond the initial sites the Senator referred to. In our actual steering group yesterday, the clinical lead and the executive lead for this programme were talking about the challenges they are facing on the ground. We have a bit to do before we can evaluate it and look at the challenges to progress it. However, the policy and the direction are crystal clear. No one is challenging that. It is about making it work in an environment and in some cases, particularly in disability services, where there are already long lists. It is about trying to work with families in as cohesive a way as we can. We can maybe come back on that in due course.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

I think that summarises it. Senator Black mentioned the integration across other health services as well. That is something we are working on to ensure that mental health supports are there across multiple areas of care. I mentioned the area of long Covid-19 to the Senator recently. We have ensured that those supports are built into the functioning of the long Covid-19 teams. That is a work in progress across multiple areas of care, including cancer.

Mr. Damien McCallion

To reinforce what Dr. Ní Bhriain said, we have seen progress on the waiting lists, which have reduced in terms of the percentage of children waiting more than 12 weeks and more than 12 months on foot of the early work from some of the investment this year. Bearing in mind that CAMHS is 2% of children, it is a small percentage but we have seen improvements in access for parents. There is still a long way to go, however, with regard to certain geographies.

I thank all the guests this morning. Thus far it has been quite informative. I will return to the issue of UHL and to Mr. McCallion specifically. This time last year, an expert team was sent in by the HSE at national level in April 2023. That expert team made recommendations. One would have to wonder whether those recommendations were implemented in full and whether an evaluation was done as to the success of these recommendations. Certainly, from a trolley count perspective, they did not achieve what we hoped they would.

Moving on to 2024 and the appointment of the regional executive officer. Last week, in the wake of a very tragic inquest, a support team of very competent people were deployed to Limerick with a very clear timeline of four weeks. As they are a week into it, they have 25% of their work done. What does Mr. McCallion hope the support team this year will achieve that the expert team last year did not? What evaluation was done in terms of the success of the expert team last year? Is it as a result of the non-delivery of the recommendations - either some or all - that a support team was deemed necessary this year? Why was it left until last week to send in the support team when it was clearly obvious before Christmas and in January and February that trolley numbers were exceeding 100 on a daily basis?

Mr. Damien McCallion

I thank the Senator. I will make a couple of points. When a support team engages, it is as part of a process we have under our performance and accountability framework. As it is an ongoing process, while it might involve direct engagement for two, three or four weeks, it does not stop at that. There is an ongoing engagement with a site that is what we call one of those focus sites and Limerick clearly is a priority for the reasons set out by the Senator with regard to trolleys.

What is the difference between the expert team that went in last year and the support team that has gone in this year?

Mr. Damien McCallion

The support team's membership can vary. That can often be just down to timing. Essentially it is about putting people who have expertise and can go in to try to support a site to see what else can be done within the site that perhaps can assist them. We discussed earlier the challenge of trying to take the learning from sites such as Waterford, Portlaoise or Tullamore where the emergency management process is working very well. Two of the people on that team at the moment are from Waterford, so they will assist in that sense.

I wish to be clear that it is an ongoing process. It is not a case of just going in, reporting and walking away. It is about trying to support the site. We saw some improvements but I absolutely accept that did not happen in Limerick with regard to trolleys. There were, however, improvements in what we call delayed transfers of care and in ambulance turnaround.

I wish to be clear because the public is not clear on this point. The difference, essentially, between the support team this year and the expert team last year is personnel. It is not the terms of reference.

Mr. Damien McCallion

In terms of a support team going onto a site under the accountability framework, the process is to look at how we can support the site, what are the learnings we can take to that site and to look at the work the site is doing. Every site will have an improvement plan. We spoke earlier about Galway and Mr. Canavan mentioned this it terms of the west and it is similar in Limerick. It is trying to work with the site to see what else can be done to try to alleviate the pressure in the hospital.

The support team has been in there for a week; since Monday, I think. What is the initial preliminary update?

Mr. Damien McCallion

The team will feed back through the regional executive officer back to me nationally but at this stage they need to get time to go in and do that work with the people on the ground. I am not in a position to say. We will let that run over the next four weeks and see what that does. The team will look at the improvement plan that is there, recommend changes to that, agree those locally and work with people to try to make sure we see some improvement alongside the other investments I mentioned earlier in terms of bed capacity and other services.

In terms of the capacity review the six regional areas are currently engaged in, when and why was it decided a capacity review was needed?

Mr. Damien McCallion

There are two things. There is a national capacity review that has been refreshed with the ESRI, on which we are working with the Department of Health, to look at the longer term. That process commenced this year and will probably run into the early part of next year. It is looking at the overall capacity within the system. The CEO separately asked the regional executive officers, following their appointment, to look at resources within their regions to try to see what are the issues and challenges, and how they could use the resources and capacity they have in the regions. They were also asked to look prospectively. That will form an input into the national review, which is much more qualitative and uses the ESRI and so on.

What timeline have the regional executive officers been given? When are they expected to report back on what capacity, if any, they require?

Mr. Damien McCallion

To be clear, the capacity piece will partially be addressed by work that is ongoing nationally through the review. There will be an initial touchpoint with the regional executive officers in respect of the review some time in June. In terms of when that work will complete, I cannot give the Senator an absolute end date but I can come back to him on that point. The initial purpose of the review was to take an initial stock take. It is important that the national capacity review will consider this based on evidence. It will look at population and need, and will look across the system. That will determine the future long-term investments. Substantial investment is obviously already scheduled for Limerick in respect of acute beds and other services.

I understand there will be scaling up with the two 96-bed blocks, a surgical hub, etc. What concerns me is the impression that is given that there could be a recommendation for a model 3 hospital. When I put that to Dr. Henry and others at a committee meeting last November, it was made abundantly clear that the clinical advice is absolutely cast iron that the recommendation is for the expansion of the capacity at UHL. That is the only show in town and there is no other. Yet, there are media reports. The Minister said in the Dáil last week that he would not rule anything out. As a result, there is a growing expectation in the mid-west that this regional executive officers' capacity review will come back and make a recommendation for a model 3 hospital. Is that a fair assessment of the situation?

Mr. Damien McCallion

As we discussed earlier in the meeting, the clinical advice remains the same in respect of the policy framework around it. We are trying to look at what is the overall availability of resources and capacity in the region and what would help to alleviate the pressures. As things stand, the clinical advice is consistent.

When the regional executive officers are looking at the capacity issue, they are guided by clinical advice. Is that correct?

Mr. Damien McCallion

Yes. A review of any aspect of our services will look for best practice and will be based on evidence.

It would be fair to say that on the basis of the clinical advice and evidence available, a model 3 hospital is most likely not on the cards. That is the case if the clinical advice is considered the overarching barometer that guides regional executive officers in their capacity evaluation.

Mr. Damien McCallion

I am not going to pre-empt their work. Any review we do in respect of capacity or how we organise our service is based on evidence and policy. The current advice is clear and as the Senator said, Dr. Henry previously shared that clinical advice.

That is absolutely so.

Mr. Damien McCallion

I am not going to pre-empt-----

Some of us have gone on the airwaves and articulated points on the basis of clinical advice. As my colleague, Deputy Cullinane, said earlier nobody wants an unsafe hospital. Equally, however, nobody wants expectations to be created that will become unachievable. A narrative that creates expectations is a dangerous one. Are the terms of reference that have been issued to the regional executive officers available? Could Mr. McCallion send a copy of them to the committee?

Mr. Damien McCallion

My understanding - Mr. Canavan may wish to comment - is that the CEO asked the regional executive officers to look at their capacity as part of coming into their roles. In the mid-west, that has got a particular focus. Mr. Canavan may wish to comment in a moment. That scope from the CEO was based on the new appointments, looking at the regions and trying to understand the capacity across the board within those regions. I can certainly come back to the Senator.

My final question relates to the second 96-bed unit for which commissioning works have already begun.

There is a date of 2028 and a second date of 2027 for when this will be completed. I believe there is also a discussion within the HSE, where HSE health regions and the team down there want to go ahead with the building of the second 96-bed unit but they are being told it has to go out to tender. In my book, this is an emergency and needs to happen now. In my book, if there is a team on the ground who are prepared to build the second 96-bed unit, there has to be some way to circumvent tendering.

Mr. Damien McCallion

To be clear, the timescale at the moment is quarter 3 of 2028 for the second unit and quarter 2 of 2025 for the first unit. We are still obliged to work under the statutory planning obligations. We did manage to utilise exemptions during the pandemic. Regarding the current situation, we have looked at this with colleagues in the Department in terms of timing. It is not so much the team on the ground, rather it is national planning, guidance and so on that is there. We are obliged to follow that.

Has the HSE made a case to Mr. Watt that the second 96-bed unit should be exempt from tendering for emergency medical reasons? Has Mr. Watt made that case to the Minister? If so, what was the answer?

Mr. Robert Watt

My understanding is that it cannot be exempted from normal tendering rules.

Given the fact there are over 100 people on trolleys every day and we are told this will be resolved by building capacity, surely to God it is an emergency. There has to be some way around tendering rules.

Mr. Damien McCallion

What I would say is-----

I would like to hear from Mr. Watt.

Mr. Robert Watt

A 96-bed unit is being developed, which will open next year. Then there is a further unit undergoing enabling works. The Minister agreed that the existing contractor would stay and do the site works and lay the foundations.

Mr. Robert Watt

This will facilitate a faster build. However, the advice we received is we are not in a position to waive the-----

Has the Minister asked Mr. Watt whether there was any way around the tendering situation to try to move this forward by a year?

Mr. Robert Watt

We have looked at all options.

How come it could be done during the pandemic? How come there could be exemptions during the pandemic and there cannot be now, even though there are over 100 people on trolleys every day of the week in UHL?

Mr. Robert Watt

Officials are not in a position to waive the laws passed by the State. We are not in that position.

Mr. Robert Watt

The advice we get from the Attorney General is unfortunately the advice we have to follow.

Mr. Damien McCallion

We will have those 96 beds in quarter 2 of 2025. We are also looking at 16 beds this year. There are mitigations between now and when the other unit of 96 comes as well. There is investment there, which is another thing that would have to factored in-----

I totally appreciate that people are doing their best but I have a duty to ask the questions on behalf of the people of the mid-west, as difficult as they may be.

I have a couple of questions. I want to focus on some of the groups we have had in recently.

Before I get into that, I have a local issue. We all tend to go down this route. I refer to the importance of Sláintecare, new pathways to care and so on. Two of the witnesses focused on waiting lists. I was told that the waiting lists for audiologist services in Tallaght last year was 2,500. This year, it is 5,800. Is it down to staff vacancies that cannot be filled or the recruitment freeze? Is this a pattern or is it just a particular problem in Tallaght?

While the witnesses look at their notes on that, I will discuss some of the groups that appeared before this committee. We had the Dental Council and the Irish Dental Association in a couple of weeks ago. Again, they focused on some of the challenges in relation to that. One of the issues the Dental Council raised was the lack of regulation in the area. Is that a priority for the Department? Some of the things they read into the record included unregistered dentists providing treatment to patients, including a person with a conviction of sexual assault, a person who repeatedly failed to diagnose serious infections in a young child, a person who had been struck off the register of dentists in other European countries and notifications of international regulators concerning 40 registered dentists who had sanctions applied in other countries.

There was a whole list of things like that, such as serious infection prevention and control matters, including a dentist working from a portacabin. There were concerns about instruments not being properly sterilised, dentists leaving bloodied extracted teeth on a radiator and so on. This came from the Dental Council.

We listened to the Irish Dental Association and it talked about how 100,000 primary school pupils were denied access to dental care and the fact we are moving people from a public service to a private service. It struck a lot of us that it is clearly a whole area of healthcare that seems to be the poor relation in regard to funding. For people with a medical card, it is almost impossible to get a dentist to take them on. Will there be any additional focus? What is going to be done? My view is that it seems to be a broken service. The people who came in were asking whether there was a plan to roll out services. Can any of the witnesses answer of those questions?

Mr. Robert Watt

I thank the Chair. I was not aware of the details and did not hear their testimony. There seems to be a variety of issues there around the availability and funding of service, the regulation of service standards and so on. Different bodies have different responsibilities for aspects of that. I will come back to the Chair on the specific points he made as they are distinct points.

Obviously, there is a question of funding. The Minister has allocated more funding to improve the public service for this year. The Chair raised specific questions around safeguarding and regulatory issues. They are obviously distinct. I will come back to the Chair on that. I do not know whether it is a policy or regulatory response, whether the existing agencies can deliver an improvement within the framework they have or whether some legislative or other change is required. Let us look at that and we will go back to the Chair.

The chair of the Dental Council said it basically does not have teeth. It cannot follow through in relation to it. This is coming from it. It seemed to be a cry for help to our committee. The witnesses can come back on this. I said we would raise some of the issues.

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

I have a couple of points to make on some comments that were made on the employment of dentists. One is that dentists are currently exempt from the recruitment pause for emergency services. There are very robust procedures in place before people are employed, including the interview. After that, there are a number of checks such as reference checks, Garda vetting checks, registration checks and so on. There are a number of robust procedures in place before somebody is employed by the HSE and that includes our dentists and orthodontists.

I think the problem is outside the HSE structure. Again, the figures speak for themselves. Some 100,000 children did not receive access to dental care last year. It seems to be a whole area of health we have fallen down on and there clearly needs to be a different focus on it.

Another group, Vision Ireland, was in. Again, it talked about a lack of strategy in this whole area. One of the things that sort of jumped out at me was when it said one of the challenges it was facing as an organisation - and I would say this is multiplied right across the system - was increased bureaucracy since the regional health areas, or RHAs, were established. It said it used to have to get contracts with nine CHOs, now it is 21 RHAs. I would have thought that whatever the structure we were establishing would have streamlined some of that.

Mr. Damien McCallion

On the audiology, while the activity that has been developed is consistent with the service plan, the overall numbers waiting are growing nationally. I suspect I will have to come back to the Chair on whether there is a specific issue regarding the level he described in Tallaght. I will revert to the Chair on that. I might ask Mr. Liam Woods to comment on the six regions. The six regions are only just in play. They are unlikely to have affected it in that way and that should be more positive but maybe-----

That is the worry they have. They are worried that this bureaucracy is going to be duplicated.

Mr. Damien McCallion

I will ask Mr. Woods to talk about that.

Mr. Liam Woods

It is a potential worry for the future rather than a reality right now but we have engaged with the voluntary sector as to how to rationalise and remove some bureaucracy from the process of service arrangements with the HSE. We are looking both within the six regions and, where relevant, across regions. We are looking at having a single arrangement that includes schedules for each of the relevant services and subservices. We hope that will ease bureaucracy rather than grow it. That is a strong view expressed to us by all voluntary bodies. We meet the nine representative groups for the voluntary sector quite frequently and they make that point. We have also been working on renegotiating or redetermining the service arrangements with the voluntary sector separately. Those two pieces of work are ongoing.

I just wished to signal that it seems to be a concern of the organisation. I am sure it is replicated with others. I am conscious of time but the Irish Lung Fibrosis Association was in with the committee again. I am conscious that there is a new contract for the supply of oxygen. The organisation was saying it had met with the project manager as part of the process and that people were worried about access to oxygen. Its representatives told some really harrowing stories. People were talking about the challenges they were facing in getting oxygen. I realise there is a new supplier and so on but they said it would have been helpful if a note had been sent out to people informing them that there was a new supplier.

On the stories they told us about accessing oxygen, people were saying that, if going for an appointment, they would have to bring their oxygen with them and that challenges arose if the appointment went over time. They talked about a survey of its members the organisation had done. There seems to be a problem in that regard. Again, it is about the roll-out of care in the public system. Will the witnesses address the cost of oxygen and the process of reimbursement, with which there seems to be a problem? These are all issues that can be fixed. While this is a historical problem and there is now a new supplier, the representatives told us that, in some cases, people had to collect the oxygen themselves. Some of these people are chronically ill and find it difficult to leave the house. Some said that, because of challenges in respect of deliveries and so on, they could not leave their home. As I have said, there were are also challenges with regard to reimbursement. Some spoke about trying to fill in forms and the challenges they faced in that regard. As chair of this committee, I ask the witnesses to look at the whole area of the oxygen supply for these people. It would be a really useful piece of work.

Mr. Robert Watt

We will follow up on that. I believe it is an issue of safety but we will follow up on it and come back to the Chair.

Mr. Damien McCallion

In fairness, in any transition from a provider, the public should not have to experience the issues the Chairman has talked about. We can take that away. We did some preparation for this but, in the interests of time, we will come back to the Chairman on it.

I thank the witnesses for the note we got but it did not really go into the supply issue.

Following on from the Chair's comments regarding the dental issues, while I unfortunately missed last week's meeting, I understand the Dental Council of Ireland was also before the committee last year and I have also raised this matter with the Minister. I refer to the possibility of employing retired dentists to enhance school screening and to ensure that the school screening policy is fulfilled and that these vital checks are done every year. The Dental Council of Ireland did not seem to believe there would be an issue as regards age and it saw merit in the suggestion. Is that something the Department or the HSE has ever considered?

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

I can come in on that. It is certainly something that can be explored. It would depend on dentists maintaining their registration, their training and so on.

One of the issues for consideration that arises is pension abatement. If somebody is a retired employee of the HSE, there is a pension abatement issue to be considered. However, it is certainly an area that is worth exploring.

Mr. Canavan mentioned the transition areas within UHG as part of the process flows. Was he talking about the temporary emergency department or the old emergency department building? Planning permission to demolish that has been granted. Is that old emergency department likely to still be available to provide additional bed capacity for the coming winter?

Mr. Tony Canavan

The area we call the emergency department transition area is part of the old emergency department. It is directly attached to the new temporary emergency department. It has accommodation space for 17 patients on beds and a further four patients on trolleys, so it gives us significant additional space to provide care for patients. We expect it to be available for this coming winter as well.

Both Mr. Watt and Mr. McCallion mentioned the public-only consultant contracts. It is positive that 51% has been reached. Is it fair to say that those consultants who are closest to retirement may be less likely to move to a new contract? Has the low-hanging fruit been reached? Will the next 10% or 20% be more difficult to achieve? Mr. McCallion also mentioned weekend work and putting additional emphasis on supporting urgent and emergency care at weekends as part of these contracts. Where are we with that? Are certain hospitals employing that change? What is the plan to roll that out?

Mr. Damien McCallion

I may ask Ms. Hoey to come in but, on the emergency care side, we have seen a growth in weekend discharges of 30% on a Saturday and 10% on a Sunday. I am in no doubt that the new contract is a key contributor to that. That is equally the case as regards Fridays and evenings. We are seeing that growth and it assists with flow and our attempts to reduce the pressure of patients on trolleys. The new consultant contract is definitely a contributor to that. It should also be borne in mind that all of the consultants who have signed up to the new public-only contract may have previously taken the option to have a private-public split so there is an immediate benefit to our system from the contract in itself as well as from our attempts to get more value from it through weekend work. I also mentioned more flexible evenings and so on. We are happy that the number of weekend discharges is growing. It is an area of focus and we are going to keep it going. That has a particular benefit for emergency medicine consultants, acute medicine and some of the diagnostic areas. I will ask Ms. Hoey to pick up on one or two of the Senator's other points.

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

As was mentioned earlier, more than 2,200 consultants are now on the new contract. Approximately 470 are new entrants since March 2023 and the balance are consultants who have transitioned. There are a number of factors individuals will take into consideration if thinking about changing to the new contract. Those consultants who were appointed since 2012 have a different salary scale and may or may not have private practice as part of their post-2012 contract. There is no doubt that the new contract is somewhat more attractive for them. Those who were appointed before 2012 and who are on the old contract, the 2008 contract, may have private practice as part of that contract. They would individually consider whether they wish to transfer over to the new contract. There are a number of contracts in place at this stage. There is the 1997 contract, the 2008 contract and the new contract. Each individual will look at his or her own specific circumstances and decide whether it is advantageous to transfer to the new contract and whether he or she is incentivised to do so.

Mr. Tony Canavan

If it is okay, I will provide some real-life examples of that in action. To take Galway as an example, there are 283 consultants currently employed in University Hospital Galway, 166 of whom now hold the new 2023 public-only contract. We have been looking very closely at how that is benefiting our patients.

We are starting to see early signs of that, with quite a bit more work to do. An example of the early signs we are seeing is our emergency department. We currently have 5.5 whole-time equivalent consultants working in the emergency department in Galway, and three of those five are on the new contract. They are providing care outside of the Monday to Friday, 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. standard working week in order to help with patient flow and we are starting to see some inroads there.

We can look across the range of medical disciplines. In medicine, 52 consultants are now on the new contract. Of those, 37 are providing care on Saturdays and all 52 are providing care outside of the normal Monday to Friday, 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. working week. That is important because when we see patients awaiting admission on trolleys in emergency departments, as we do today, they are awaiting beds that can only be made available to them once a clinician, usually a physician, has made a decision to discharge a patient from the hospital. Having those physicians available over the course of the week and outside the normal Monday to Friday working hours is important. That has contributed to some of the improvements we have seen in the discharge rates at Galway University Hospital.

I thank Mr. Canavan.

Ms Anne Marie Hoey

It is also important to note that since the new contract was introduced, the number of applicants for posts has doubled. Our average applicant per post was previously approximately two and is now more like four. There has been a considerable increase in the interest, nationally and internationally, in positions and what would previously have been hard-to-fill posts.

Are the figures in Galway replicated across all hospitals?

Mr. Damien McCallion

There is some variation between hospitals in relation to-----

Have all hospitals now taken up additional weekend and out of the normal-----

Mr. Damien McCallion

Yes. As Mr. Canavan said, there have been benefits in all hospitals from the work and survey we have done but there is more to do and there is more potential there. As Mr. Canavan said, if there is a small pool of specialists and one or two people sign up and the others do not, there are challenges. It is also important to say it is not just about consultants. We must also ensure we have appropriate diagnostics and other services to support people. We also need resources in the community, as we talk about emergency care at weekends for discharge and so on.

All of that is very positive and it is just important that we measure it. We need systems in place to do that.

I want to go back to points that were made about children's mental health services. A comment was made or an indication was given that they are standardised across the country. There has, understandably, been a lot of political focus on child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, because of what emerged in south Kerry and so on. The whole area of primary care psychology services has been very much overlooked. I will look at area 4, and Cork, in particular. I saw figures recently and there are now over 4,000 children on waiting lists for primary care psychology services in the Cork area alone. That goes up to nearly 5,000 when Kerry is included. I do not think that the moratorium is any excuse because those waiting lists predate it. What is happening in the Cork area? Why are there long waiting lists? Are there particular problems relating to Cork? Have there been a lot of vacancies or what is the situation in Cork? That more than 4,000 children are waiting for psychology services is completely unacceptable.

Mr. Damien McCallion

I will come back to the Deputy about Cork specifically. In terms of percentages and waiting lists over 52 weeks, the waiting list for psychology services in the community is one we are struggling with in terms of the numbers. We are focused on the activity, the number of psychologists we have for adults and children and if we are seeing the numbers coming through. We are challenged in that regard and Dr. Ní Bhriain may want to add to that and share the numbers. It goes back to a point made earlier by Senator Black about the national access policy. The key in that regard is that if patients cannot get into, or do not need access to, CAMHS, they can be referred to primary care or to a children's disability team. That is the ideal-----

In Cork specifically, what is the issue?

Mr. Damien McCallion

We will have to come back to the Deputy unless Dr. Ní Bhriain is in a position to reply.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

I cannot answer specifically about Cork but I can say there is enormous demand across the healthcare system for psychology services and support. That not only applies to children's services but also to many of our other clinical services.

I am asking about children's services in Cork. What is the problem there? The Department made a point about access being equal across the country but there is obviously a specific issue in Cork in respect of children's services.

Mr. Damien McCallion

We will revert to the Deputy because I do not have the answer about Cork. It will, I suspect, be a local issue of some sort but I cannot comment on that here. I will take the issue away.

Mr. McCallion would accept that a waiting list of over 4,000 is not on.

Mr. Damien McCallion

I absolutely would. We will come back to the Deputy on that issue.

Nearly 1,000 people are waiting for appointments with CAMHS. I will raise a couple of issues about UHL. When the term "clinical advice" is used, it often shuts down any debate. I would always give way to clinical advice but it is clear that there was a problem with the reconfiguration of the hospital groups. The mid-west's is the only hospital group that does not have a model 3 hospital. Other groups have multiple model 3 hospitals. It is the stepdown version of an emergency department. It was, it would appear, an oversight because there is no logical explanation for the absence of a model 3 hospital. Is any consideration being given to the designation of one of the other hospitals as a model 3 hospital?

My next question relates to the availability of Barringtons hospital, which has 53 beds and a lot of the other capacity required for a functioning hospital is up and running. I raised the matter with the Taoiseach last week and he said he would pursue the issue with the Minister for Health. May I ask those two questions of Mr. Watt? Is model 3 being explored? Is the acquisition of Barringtons hospital being explored?

Mr. Robert Watt

I do not think the issue of a model 3 hospital is being explored in the context of capacity issues in the mid-west. The Minister previously asked us to look into Barringtons hospital and we had conversations with Bon Secours. I met the CEO and the CEO of the HSE also met a team from HSE estates. They examined the building but the recommendation was that it was not something in which we were interested at that stage.

I earlier raised the issue of value for money and I am not sure there are robust systems in place. Is any consideration being given to money following the patient as a means of establishing value for money and bringing clarity to spending?

Mr. Robert Watt

What precisely would "money following the patient" mean?

Hospitals, for example, would be funded on the basis of the number of procedures they carry out.

Mr. Robert Watt

We have debated the extent to which we will look at that. We have a block grant approach through which an allocation is made. The approach we have adopted over recent years is to drive performance management and improvement, to publish indices and to look at differences in performance. That will be the focus this year but certainly, over time, we need to look more fundamentally at the incentives for people in the system. A system whereby we fund in that fashion will not be appropriate for all activities but certainly for day cases, in the context of the new elective hospitals, it may be appropriate to have a different funding model. That is a matter we have been debating.

As the Deputy knows, our system went down that route in the past and moved away from it. We now have a more block grant approach. Ensuring that everybody has the correct incentives to do more and to provide more care is certainly something we need to look at.

I have a quick question. I was interested in Mr. McCallion's opening statement, in which he mentioned advancing the implementation of a new application this year. Could he tell us more about that? Is it aimed at members of the public or is it more for healthcare professionals?

Mr. Damien McCallion

The application is aimed at the public. The initial focus will be on areas around self-care, vaccinations and guidance into the system because it can sometimes be very confusing for the public to know where to go. I do not mean that in terms of directions but it can be confusing to navigate the system and access services. There will be a particular focus on women and maternity services. The idea is that people will be able to see their appointments and get information about services. As well as getting more general information, they will be able to get information specific to them. There is a trial run with a group of patients coming up during the early part of the summer. The aim is to launch the first phase before the end of this year. There will be many more phases over time and it something we hope will develop. It will get to a point where we need to develop the data and underlying systems to support what we can give to patients and access for all of us.

In the same way we can access airlines, we will be able to access things such as hospital appointments and our own records in due course. The underpinning elements will have to happen. The plan is for the public to have it by the end of this year. A trial period will be run with a subset of patients. As I said, the initial focus is on people using maternity services, surrounded by information about self-care, access to services and other pieces as well.

When will that be ready to go?

Mr. Damien McCallion

The end of this year. The plan is to launch for the public for the end of this year. However, it is something that will grow and evolve. We see in other jurisdictions, for example, with the NHS app and other countries that have brought it in, that it is very much an evolution. As you get better systems underneath, you are able to make that data available to all of us in the public to access our services.

I need to end this part of the meeting. I thank the representatives of the Department of Health and the HSE for continuing to engage with the committee. We look forward to working with them further on these important matters. The meeting is suspended and will resume shortly at 12 noon.

Sitting suspended at 11.56 a.m. and resumed at 12.03 p.m.
Barr
Roinn